i think the instructions are missing the ./configure step? the
makefile tells me, but the instructions should say it as well, then.
Interesting ā¦ what is on bit-bucked? I know another user had some code
on bitbucket.
My wording may have been misleading: I was thinking about other software
products, not just ATS (say Iāve drifted a bit).
$0.01 if possible, it would be good to elide or migrate the parts of
the āmainā site that talk about installation. thereās like 3 different
places to find install instructions, all different, so getting it down
to 1 would be great, even if it isnāt all correct the first time -
easier to fix 1 than figure out which of 3 to fix.
Brandon Barker
brandon...@gmail.com
I donāt think we necessarily need to follow the recipe of ./configure &&
make && make installYes, I agree. But the point was not there (at least from my point of
view), rather in the documentation suggesting erroneous steps.
Right, I also agree having one place for (correct & up-to-date)
installation instructions and one general install mechanism probably makes
sense.
The only caveat I can think of is that most people probably
wouldnāt/shouldnāt do āmake installā on a git version,
Why so?
Well, I use the git version personally, but one can imagine that for
production systems and multi-user systems, it might not be ideal. But as I
said, probably not something to split hairs over too much for now.
Yes, but the repo on git.code.sf.net bootstrapped and built without any
issues.
martinOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 1:16 PM, āYannick DuchĆŖneā via ats-lang-users < ats-lan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Le jeudi 7 aoƻt 2014 21:37:39 UTC+2, Martin DeMello a Ʃcrit :
A set of problems I just ran into:
- the repo at GitHub - githwxi/ATS-Postiats: ATS2: Unleashing the Potentials of Types and Templates is missing an
autogen.sh- when I ran through the steps manually, ./configure was generated but
running it did not generate a makefile- Makefile_devl seems to depend on an existing ats install:
Professor Xi may tell more, I just can say I remember he said: so far,
generating ATS2 C sources requires ATS1. Anyway, you will need an ATS
compiler installed to compile to C then compile C to binary. The original
sources are not C sources, they are ATS1 sources (and will be ATS2 sources
in the future).ā
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.
ah.
ok so that leads me to suggest please: get rid of everything anywhere
other than github.
(thereās a basic principle of usability here: make things as simple as
possible. entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity!)
- do not have sourceforge at all. this is like some kind of dmz
machine honeypot for making people waste their time? i actually hate
sourceforge and the crappy ui, and would much rather be doing pull
request ui on github in the first place. augh. - get rid of the install instructions on the ats web site. the might
be more detailed and even more correct, but ok then, put those updates
into the INSTALL file and the readme.md file on github so that there
is ONE single canonical place to get (and fix and correct and update)
the instructions. - try to not have any difference between the targz version and what i
would get from cloning. otherwise you waste peopleās time trying to
figure out what is what where why when. - the targz can be a file to download from the github repo if need be.
- also that way, having the github readme.md, people who make e.g.
.deb files can update the readme with a pull request, to have an http
link directly to the download / instructions for things e.g. brew. i
mean i tried to use lauchpad but i have no freaking clue how to get
the deb files for ats2, where to find them, how to download them,
anything like that, because launchpad is just a horrible horrible
ui/ux.
more $0.02.
It does, though in an unusual way:
Stable releases are at sourceforge
Development is happening at github.
understatement!
iāll refer to my (1) where i suggest coalescing. 
seriously, just pick github and do it the github way. no i do not have
stock in github, no i do not think github is perfect, it drives me
crazy plenty of times, personally i use bitbucket for historical
reasons, etcā¦ but at least it would be a single common denominator.
a) everything only on github
[use vanilla/standard git branching]
b) master branch is stable
c) make a dev branch that doesnāt have to be stable
d) fix all the install stuff to be one single consistent working sane
documented path.
e) make a vm of that snapshot :-}
I got that point, and thanks for all the helpful comments recently - I
hope they can all be implemented.
One thing that has been mentioned before but I think is on hold a bit
(which I should have mentioned in my last e-mail) was to put the main
ATS website on github pages as well, using jekyll:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/ats-lang-users/5Iswd3qZxMw/-ttVvPL2lsQJ
Iāll be honest, I was trying to conscript my wife in to doing some
design for it but she has been focusing on some domestic issues that
are apparently more interesting (the thought!), but design aside, it
may still be worth salvaging this effort.
Brandon Barker
brandonā¦@gmail.comOn Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Raoul Duke rao...@gmail.com wrote:
i just meant: please donāt wait to get rid of sourceforge repos just
because there is some (nice but high-falutinā) dream about a full ats
web system.ā
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I would like to point out that
libgmp is still optional. I actually used a version of ATS2 without libgmp
for my summer class. In the future, I will release such a version. For
someone
who wants to try on his or her own, please take a look at
${PATSHOME}/src/pats_params.dats
It should be pretty clear as to what needs to be changed :)On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 10:56:33 PM UTC-4, Raoul Duke wrote:
clarification: the pages mention it but
(a) they should mention it before the download steps
(b) the INSTALL file should mention it
(c) the pages say it is optional but doesnāt seem that way now. :-}
ah. their faq sucks. at first reading it looks like you can go over.
but then you canāt so who knows. jerks. dumb jerks. make it clear!
sheesh! (see? github sucks, too.) stackoverflow says you can
transiently go over, but no consistently.
i donāt understand enough here. are the generated C sources important?
why canāt they ājustā be re-geneād locally by each person? or why
canāt they be tar gzip -9ād and saved in the repo? etc. etc. etc.
if the easiest thing is to simply use SF for a single tar.gz or
whatever then go with that. but get rid of whatever else is on SF. or,
it is āeasyā toget 5GB free from major services
(http://goo.gl/YnzZ86).
probably i still donāt get it. i want there to be a way to make it all
really simple and almost simplistic :-}
Iāll work on moving the sf wiki over to the github wiki soon ā¦ might be a
few days before I get time to finish.
Brandon Barker
brandonā¦@gmail.comOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Raoul Duke rao...@gmail.com wrote:
Aha! I did not realise this at all; it was definitely confusing me as to
why
the sourceforge version appeared to bootstrap without an ats1 compiler.
Maybe put something in the README/INSTALL about it?maybe please buck up and nuke sourceforce entirely. putting more
band-aids on isnāt really solving the problem.ā
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.
A set of problems I just ran into:
- the repo at GitHub - githwxi/ATS-Postiats: ATS2: Unleashing the Potentials of Types and Templates is missing an
autogen.sh - when I ran through the steps manually, ./configure was generated but
running it did not generate a makefile - Makefile_devl seems to depend on an existing ats install:
make[1]: Entering directory `/home/mdemello/code/ats-github/srcā
/bin/atscc -DATS C3NSTRINTKND=gmpknd -cc pats_main.dats
make[1]: /bin/atscc: Command not found
The git repo from sourceforge built without problems, though the INSTALL
instructions are a bit off (there is no ./configure in the repo; you need
to run ./autogen.sh first) - Iād suggest merging the sourceforge git repo
into github as a āstableā branch since people are more likely to look at
github than to read the download webpage and see that thereās a repo on
git.code.sf.net
martinOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Brandon Barker brandon...@gmail.com wrote:
Brandon Barker
brandon...@gmail.comOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 2:33 PM, āYannick DuchĆŖneā via ats-lang-users < ats-lan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Le jeudi 7 aoƻt 2014 18:57:28 UTC+2, Brandon Barker a Ʃcrit :
I donāt think we necessarily need to follow the recipe of ./configure &&
make && make installYes, I agree. But the point was not there (at least from my point of
view), rather in the documentation suggesting erroneous steps.Right, I also agree having one place for (correct & up-to-date)
installation instructions and one general install mechanism probably makes
sense.The only caveat I can think of is that most people probably
wouldnāt/shouldnāt do āmake installā on a git version,
Why so?
Well, I use the git version personally, but one can imagine that for
production systems and multi-user systems, it might not be ideal. But as I
said, probably not something to split hairs over too much for now.ā
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.ā
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.
Please note that the sourceforge-version essentially
consists of C code generated from the github-version.
Aha! I did not realise this at all; it was definitely confusing me as to
why the sourceforge version appeared to bootstrap without an ats1 compiler.
Maybe put something in the README/INSTALL about it?
martin
I added the following caveat in the INSTALL file:
Attention:
Please note that this file is kept for
use only if the following link is unavailable:
http://www.ats-lang.org/DOWNLOAD/#ATS_packages
Otherwise please visit the link for up-to-date
instructions on installing the ATS programming
language system.
The instructions given on the wiki are for installing
ATS2 using the ATS1-source; they are for developers to follow:
Create new page Ā· githwxi/ATS-Postiats Wiki Ā· GitHub Saturday, August 9, 2014 12:31:11 AM UTC-4, Raoul Duke wrote:
$0.01 if possible, it would be good to elide or migrate the parts of
the āmainā site that talk about installation. thereās like 3 different
places to find install instructions, all different, so getting it down
to 1 would be great, even if it isnāt all correct the first time -
easier to fix 1 than figure out which of 3 to fix.
i think somehow iām failing to communicate. i do not understand how
this isnāt a big deal if you actually want people to use the system.
having directions that are actually correct is i should think
important?
i tried to submit a fork/patch request for the INSTALL file in git on
sourceforge, (i actually want things to be good here!) but that was
based on my targz experience, and now the experience using git is
different and nothing anywhere seems to correctly clearly document how
to make it work. so my efforts seem to be for naught already. dogged.
i mean i would have had just as much trouble and eventual success
without reading the INSTALL file. which seems unfortunate.
i know ats isnāt a commercial production thing, but i really think if
you want to make sure nothing stands in the way of people trying it
out. weāve got enough computer troubles day in day out. activation
energy to put up with bumps in the road can vary, but i suspect you
are already making some otherwise interested people give up.
i mean in this day and age if it doesnāt install and run in 5 minutes
i pretty much write things off. i mean, if the install isnāt fun how
can the rest of it be?
$0.02
Please note that the sourceforge-version essentially
consists of C code generated from the github-version.
To me, it is confusing to put these two versions together.
The released version is sourceforge-stable and the git-repo
at sourceforge is sourceforge-unstable.
It is possible to have github-stable/github-unstable in the future,
but that would be a different story. In my opinion, no user should
be really using the gitbub-version unless he/she also wants
to help develop ATS2.On Thursday, August 7, 2014 4:53:29 PM UTC-4, Raoul Duke wrote:
It does, though in an unusual way:
Stable releases are at sourceforge
Development is happening at github.understatement!
iāll refer to my (1) where i suggest coalescing.
seriously, just pick github and do it the github way. no i do not have
stock in github, no i do not think github is perfect, it drives me
crazy plenty of times, personally i use bitbucket for historical
reasons, etcā¦ but at least it would be a single common denominator.a) everything only on github
[use vanilla/standard git branching]
b) master branch is stable
c) make a dev branch that doesnāt have to be stabled) fix all the install stuff to be one single consistent working sane
documented path.
e) make a vm of that snapshot :-}
i can believe it ā iāve had plenty of technical debt situations to
face over the years. iāve seen it both from the inside, where we are
ācomfortableā / āinuredā / ābeaten downā / ātoo busy with other
thingsā / āit works on my machineā / etc. to deal with it. and iāve
seen it from the outside, where iām like, āok never mind guess iāll go
use something else now and never come backā and āoh the funnel never
got enough people and so now the product / company / nsf-sponsored
project is fired / dead / gone / will never get another 5 year renewal
grant, ever, period.ā
you are ācomfortableā with how it works.
new people are most likely less so. if at all. maybe actively not. so
this particular technical debt might be friction that slows adoption
of ats by anybody other than insiders. it is probably not very
quantifiable for many reasons, including that the people who give up
probably donāt have any interest in expending more energy telling you
about this; they just want to get on with life elsewhere.
so anyway i think it is in your rational personal best interest to
find some way to address it sooner rather than later. i do not know if
you have worked in industry / with industry people, or have suffered
through Business Speak situations, but what you have here is A Problem
With Your Funnel. thatās baaaad mojo to people who actually care about
the bottom line, which in this day and age is usually adoption and
eyeballs (the theory being that eventually the money will follow :-).
find an intern / summer student / undergrad who wants credit / out of
work hacker who needs to have something on their resume instead of
unemployed blankness. having done summer student / extra credit work
for PIs as an undergrad, and as having been a laid off software
engineer before, i expect that a university setting gives you more
access to such thingsā¦ but maybe not.
yes it is easy for an outsider such as meeeee to do a fly-by dropping
of advice. but this is not only me being an uptight easily annoyed
person who has really high standards for ui/ux (and who has already
used up any good will on cutting-edge languages long ago with bad haxe
or lfe-erlang installs, to name a few), it is also me being sad that i
see what i think are real basic up-front issues that are i dare say
slowing down ats adoption, which would be a crying shame.
you know that in biology/biotech in academia thereās a push for the
software to be available and to work and for the data sets to be
available and to work and to give the same results? so while on the
one hand if you live in academia (i have, several times, on and off,
in my life) then you can sorta figure eh it doesnāt have to work for
anybody else. but i like that the bio community is saying, āback the
truck up, hold on a second! if the software doesnāt work for anybody
else, why should we believe the claims in the published paper?ā and i
was sort of under the impression that you actually want ats to be more
than just something your direct reports use?
iām an outlier of course probably in terms of how i measure things up.
one last (last? hah) suggestion: make a vm image and release it so
that i can just boot it up in some standard free open x86
virtualization environment (virtual box, or even
aws/openstack/whatever). that would be one nice kind of
end-run/gordian-knot solution.
(i suspect my $0.02 is probably not going to have a good exchange rate
with anybody around here any more 
Thereās a 1GB limit or so on github repos. So it probably wouldnāt be too
great to put version controlled repos with generated c sources there. Does
the limit include releases? I guess it probably does. So maybe a
space-conserving alternative is to use a different hosting service for tar
file releases that wonāt confuse people like sf.net (since sf.net is many
things, not just a file hosting service). Any suggestions?
Brandon Barker
brandonā¦@gmail.comOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Raoul Duke rao...@gmail.com wrote:
Aha! I did not realise this at all; it was definitely confusing me as to
why
the sourceforge version appeared to bootstrap without an ats1 compiler.
Maybe put something in the README/INSTALL about it?maybe please buck up and nuke sourceforce entirely. putting more
band-aids on isnāt really solving the problem.ā
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.
Aha! I did not realise this at all; it was definitely confusing me as to why
the sourceforge version appeared to bootstrap without an ats1 compiler.
Maybe put something in the README/INSTALL about it?
maybe please buck up and nuke sourceforce entirely. putting more
band-aids on isnāt really solving the problem.
Brandon Barker
brandon...@gmail.com
i can believe it ā iāve had plenty of technical debt situations to
face over the years. iāve seen it both from the inside, where we are
ācomfortableā / āinuredā / ābeaten downā / ātoo busy with other
thingsā / āit works on my machineā / etc. to deal with it. and iāve
seen it from the outside, where iām like, āok never mind guess iāll go
use something else now and never come backā and āoh the funnel never
got enough people and so now the product / company / nsf-sponsored
project is fired / dead / gone / will never get another 5 year renewal
grant, ever, period.āyou are ācomfortableā with how it works.
new people are most likely less so. if at all. maybe actively not. so
this particular technical debt might be friction that slows adoption
of ats by anybody other than insiders. it is probably not very
quantifiable for many reasons, including that the people who give up
probably donāt have any interest in expending more energy telling you
about this; they just want to get on with life elsewhere.so anyway i think it is in your rational personal best interest to
find some way to address it sooner rather than later. i do not know if
you have worked in industry / with industry people, or have suffered
through Business Speak situations, but what you have here is A Problem
With Your Funnel. thatās baaaad mojo to people who actually care about
the bottom line, which in this day and age is usually adoption and
eyeballs (the theory being that eventually the money will follow :-).find an intern / summer student / undergrad who wants credit / out of
work hacker who needs to have something on their resume instead of
unemployed blankness. having done summer student / extra credit work
for PIs as an undergrad, and as having been a laid off software
engineer before, i expect that a university setting gives you more
access to such thingsā¦ but maybe not.yes it is easy for an outsider such as meeeee to do a fly-by dropping
of advice. but this is not only me being an uptight easily annoyed
person who has really high standards for ui/ux (and who has already
used up any good will on cutting-edge languages long ago with bad haxe
or lfe-erlang installs, to name a few), it is also me being sad that i
see what i think are real basic up-front issues that are i dare say
slowing down ats adoption, which would be a crying shame.you know that in biology/biotech in academia thereās a push for the
software to be available and to work and for the data sets to be
available and to work and to give the same results? so while on the
one hand if you live in academia (i have, several times, on and off,
in my life) then you can sorta figure eh it doesnāt have to work for
anybody else. but i like that the bio community is saying, āback the
truck up, hold on a second! if the software doesnāt work for anybody
else, why should we believe the claims in the published paper?ā and i
was sort of under the impression that you actually want ats to be more
than just something your direct reports use?Your comments remind me of this article I just read, though it isnāt
really tackling
the problem of reproducibility
(also the article has a number of problems - like suggesting UML, and I
hesitate to post it since the target audience,
if there is one, is probably not professional software engineers)